HomeCounter-Racism Radio NetworkCounter-Racism Television NetworkArticlesProjectsCounter-Racism Work/Study ProjectShopping MallContact
Secure DonationsSecure Donations  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  ProfileProfile  Log inLog in

TRUST
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Counter-Racism Work/Study Project Forum Index -> Counter-Racism Definitionary
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 2:23 am    Post subject: TRUST Reply with quote

TRUST-- Pronunciation Key

Doing / Not doing or saying/ not saying anything before obtaining proof that it should / should not be done or said.
_________________
Death of the lower body is certain. Now what?


Last edited by HelixHair on Thu May 08, 2003 3:34 am; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Josh



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 796
Location: Closer

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That definition seem airtight, but you know what?


I don't trust any people; White people, niggers...


what does this mean?

Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MsTreated



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 33
Location: Chicago Vicinity

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may mean that neither have proven themselves to you to be trustWORTHY. OR...

It could mean that neither white people or niggers gave you enough hugs as a child. :P
_________________
Utchau Metut: "the weighing of words" - the evaluation of concepts, ideas, beliefs, behavioral shaping factors, and spiritual practices"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:49 am    Post subject: Josh, regarding the meaning ... Reply with quote

of your lack of trust in both white and non-white people:

Does it not mean that you need proof that white people and nonwhite people will do the correct thing? The correct thing starts with revealing truth while the finish line is doing the thing(s) that produce justice.

Since Racism/White Supremacy exists, neither white people nor nonwhite people have proven that they have both the will and the ability to produce justice.

However, trusting people who have the greatest will and ability to mistreat you is the most hazardous. Those people, Racist Man and Racist Woman, are always white people. While not all white people are Racists/ White Supremacists, no reliable proof exists for non-white people as to which white persons are RM/RW and which are not. :shock:
_________________
Death of the lower body is certain. Now what?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Edward Williams
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 3086
Location: I am from everywhere I've ever been and everywhere I've never been

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: TRUST Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
TRUST
--The absence of any need for proof


The absence of any need for proof of what?
_________________
What is the reason YOU were born into a SYSTEM of INJUSTICE if not to replace it with a SYSTEM of JUSTICE?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good clarifying question. Thank you. I've revised the definition FROM:


Quote:
TRUST
---The absence of any need for proof



TO
Quote:
TRUST
---The absence of any need for proof that a statement is true or that an action is correct
.


So, it would be incorrect to say that one trusts a person or a thing. Instead of saying, "Jim is our accountant. I trust Jim." One should say "Jim is our accountant. I trust that he will not steal our money and that he will keep an accurate record of all transactions."


Instead of saying "Let's not have the ceremony outside because we can't trust the weather." One should say, "Lets not have the ceremony outside because we cannot be certain of what the weather will be."[
_________________
Death of the lower body is certain. Now what?


Last edited by HelixHair on Mon May 05, 2003 10:59 pm; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Edward Williams
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 3086
Location: I am from everywhere I've ever been and everywhere I've never been

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
Good clarifying question. Thank you. I've revised the definition...

FROM:

Quote:
TRUST
--The absence of any need for proof


TO:

Quote:
The absence of any need for proof that a statement is true or that an action is correct.


So, it would be incorrect to say that one trusts a person or a thing. Instead of saying, "Jim is our accountant. I trust Jim." One should say "Jim is our accountant. I trust that he will not steal our money and that he will keep an accurate record of all transactions."


Instead of saying "Let's not have the ceremony outside because we can't trust the weather." One should say, "Lets not have the ceremony outside because we cannot be certain of what the weather will be."


What are the mechanics of "trust", as you have defined it, under the SYSTEM of white supremacy racism? HOW does it work? WHEN does it work? WHERE does it work?
_________________
What is the reason YOU were born into a SYSTEM of INJUSTICE if not to replace it with a SYSTEM of JUSTICE?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dan Freeman



Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 651
Location: Wherever I'm sent.

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 2:32 pm    Post subject: Trust? Reply with quote

It's 'good' to see people tackling the codifacation process, particulary around definitions. This is how counter-racist codifacation "earns it's money", so to speak. By letting the words do the work for you.

However, in trying to refine counter racist language, I have noticed that "subtraction" is often the best "addition".

In regaurd to the word "Trust", since I don't know what it is, I frequently attempt to NOT use the term.

And I don't even miss it.

This is only my suggestion, and I could be incorrect.

smallz
_________________
Understanding is honoring the truth beneath the surface.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Josh



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 796
Location: Closer

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:32 pm    Post subject: subtraction Reply with quote

Subtraction...yeah, Im trying to train myself to only use the best words required to reveal truth. When discussing racism/White supremacy, I have found that White people use "Buckets of words". Even in response to a simple yes or no question.

The "Tampa girl" interview is a great example of the phenomenon.

Many people are impressed by the use of more and bigger words. Black people are often encouraged to expand their vocabulary with words or terms that only serve the system of White supremacy.

multiculturalism

people of color

mixed blood
(mixed with what? wheat germ, kool-aid, moth balls?)

This is why a Black college graduate with an SAT of 1600 will be scratchin his head in a racial discussion with a White teenager.

EXAMPLE: (at a "diversity" forum)

Black 1600 SATer: The socio economic and political policies of the European slave owning class are in exact cohesion with the contemporary trans national corporate culture of greed and exploitation that is depleting the worlds resources"

(audience applauds)

White teenager Yeah, and thats why I oppose the World Bank and the IMF. Our generation needs to put an end to (now watch how they level the playing field) ECONOMIC EXPLOITATION, SEXISMracismHOMOPHOBIA, CHILD LABOR AND CAPITALIST PATRIARCAL OPPRESSION As a member of "Generation X" and a long time lesbian who is currently exploring aspects of my bisexuality, I am committed to forming coalitions that united to fight the oppressionS that keep us ALL from reclaiming our souls and getting in touch with the inner creativity, the true dynamic spirit, the one thing we need, (she can breath between syllables) to create sustainable, communities for a living planet"

(more applause)
see how they wedge "racism" into a clusterfuck of other equal and interchangeable "isms"?

See what I mean? buckets of words goin nowhere at light speed.

Now I don't blame the Black person, they were required to learn those words in order to graduate and get 1600 on their SAT. Required by the smartest most powerful White people (White supremacists).

But just like using a rope to

push a car up a hill, the words they give you aren't designed to replace White supremacy with Justice.

And this is what compensatory counter racist language is all about.

Using words to reveal truth and as a consequence,

PRODUCE JUSTICE.

Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that with words, less is more. However, in my experience, the word "trust" is like the word "nigger" and "culture". It ain't goin nowhere. Let me explain by way of relating something I'm going through right now in my workplace.
[color=blue]

There have been numerous occasions in which white persons have denied that I have submitted to them required documents. In response to this, I began about a year ago, a document log that verifies that I submitted a document by having the person to whom I submitted the document sign for it.
[/color]

A few days ago, I was told by my superior-advisor(supervisor) that I could no longer request signatures on the document log because it was contrary to our agency value of "trust." I was even told that "In some ways, it encourages mistrust."

There have been times when many persons were highly suspect of the intentions behind a series of decisions made by management. Questions were asked about what was known by whom and when it became known. Those persons were told that not to "assume the best" of all the officials of the agency is a violation of agency values.

This is becoming standard in my field. I suspect it will become a standard Racist tool in the work place. Hence, I have concluded that a definition of "trust" that reveals truth is neccesary to counter Racsim.
_________________
Death of the lower body is certain. Now what?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Dan Freeman



Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 651
Location: Wherever I'm sent.

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 12:27 am    Post subject: Trust... Reply with quote

A ha!

I have the words to tell you why I attempt not to use the word "trust".

"Trust" aint a scientific term!

How can you measure "trust"?

How do you know if you have it?

How do you know if you don't?

What are the mechanics of how "trust" works?

I could be incorrect but, I think the term "trust" is problimatic in relation to the logical nature of counter racist codifacation because "trust" relates to something that will always place the victim-of-racsim at a disadvantage in conversations about Racsim/White Supremacy with a white person:

EMOTION

Emotions and/or feelings are the precursor to a victim-of-racsim to stop FOLLOWING THE LOGIC.

And the next thing you know people are asking you to "belive" them because you can "trust" them.

Fuck that.

That's why I don't see the need for a term to describe something I shouldn't be doing under the current supreme politcal system anyway.

Cause following the logic, in the PRISON of the System of Racsim/White Supremacy a Nigger (Prisoner) can either "trust" a GUARD (White person)
or a Warden (Racist/White Supremacist).

Like I said,

Fuck that.

smallz
_________________
Understanding is honoring the truth beneath the surface.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[[color=darkred]A ha!

I have the words to tell you why I attempt not to use the word "trust".

"Trust" aint a scientific term!

How can you measure "trust"?

How do you know if you have it?

How do you know if you don't?

What are the mechanics of how "trust" works?

I could be incorrect but, I think the term "trust" is problimatic in relation to the logical nature of counter racist codifacation because "trust" relates to something that will always place the victim-of-racsim at a disadvantage in conversations about Racsim/White Supremacy with a white person:

EMOTION

Emotions and/or feelings are the precursor to a victim-of-racsim to stop FOLLOWING THE LOGIC.

And the next thing you know people are asking you to "belive" them because you can "trust" them.

Fuck that.

That's why I don't see the need for a term to describe something I shouldn't be doing under the current supreme politcal system anyway.

Cause following the logic, in the PRISON of the System of Racsim/White Supremacy a Nigger (Prisoner) can either "trust" a GUARD (White person)
or a Warden (Racist/White Supremacist). color]


smallz, I agree that using the word "trust" to descibe emotion has no counter-racist value.

That is why I've proposed the definition I've posted. It is a scientific definition because it describes what a person is doing...NOT REQUIRING PROOF THAT SOMETHING A PERSON SAID IS CORRECT OR THAT SOMETHING A PERSON DID OR WILL DO IS CORRECT.

White people that I suspect are practicing Racism/White Supremacy INSIST on using the word probably because it cannot be proved and, hence, is just an exercise in power. I'm attempting to take that tool away by following the logic in the definition.

So, the questiion can be asked "why do the timesheets need to be submitted and signed?" Why is proof needed that I worked the hours I say I worked? Why can't you trust me?
_________________
Death of the lower body is certain. Now what?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Edward Williams
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 3086
Location: I am from everywhere I've ever been and everywhere I've never been

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
I agree that with words, less is more. However, in my experience, the word "trust" is like the word "nigger" and "culture". It ain't goin nowhere. Let me explain by way of relating something I'm going through right now in my workplace.


There have been numerous occasions in which white persons have denied that I have submitted to them required documents. In response to this, I began about a year ago, a document log that verifies that I submitted a document by having the person to whom I submitted the document sign for it.


A few days ago, I was told by my superior-advisor(supervisor) that I could no longer request signatures on the document log because it was contrary to our agency value of "trust." I was even told that "In some ways, it encourages mistrust."

There have been times when many persons were highly suspect of the intentions behind a series of decisions made by management. Questions were asked about what was known by whom and when it became known. Those persons were told that not to "assume the best" of all the officials of the agency is a violation of agency values.

This is becoming standard in my field. I suspect it will become a standard Racist tool in the work place. Hence, I have concluded that a definition of "trust" that reveals truth is neccesary to counter Racsim.


You should read the "Communication Using E-Mail" topic in the "HOW To Counter Racism (White Supremacy) in the Workplace" forum.

I asked the following questions before in response to the re-defining of the word "Trust":
Virtual_GOD wrote:
What are the mechanics of "trust", as you have defined it, under the SYSTEM of white supremacy racism? HOW does it work? WHEN does it work? WHERE does it work?

The reason I asked these questions is that, presumably, under the SYSTEM of racism white supremacy, "trust" as you have defined it has no practical value for a victim of racism white supremacy.

I would say that "trust" could be any speech and/or action used in such a manner as to reveal truth and promote justice and correctness in all places and at all times. The utility of this definition keeps the victim of racism white supremacy focused on replacing white supremacy racism with justice.

Once truth is revealed why is "trust" as you have defined it necessary?

In a SYSTEM of white supremacy racism, if a victim of racism white supremacy wants to trust anything they should trust their ability to replace theSYSTEM of white supremacy with a SYSTEM of justice.

I could be incorrect.
_________________
What is the reason YOU were born into a SYSTEM of INJUSTICE if not to replace it with a SYSTEM of JUSTICE?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Josh



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 796
Location: Closer

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 9:37 am    Post subject: trust Reply with quote

Now, HelixHair, I understand the utility of getting signitures for documents given or recieved. When I worked as an inter-office messenger the White people ( and they were all White people) were required to sign for all envelopes, not necessarially out of lack of trust, but because most peoples desks were a mess an full of other envelopes and somebody was always claimin they couldn't find something.

Are you prepared to explain to your superior advisor WHY you had to adopt this strategy?

Are you prepared to explain the dynamics of racism White supremacy?

Do you have the required language to do so?

Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve stated in a previous post on this topic that the word “trust”, like the word “culture” ain’t goin nowhere. Such words are not going away because they are favored racist tools to confuse non-white people like a street name sign that is hung both north-south and east-west on many different corners. Such words take people nowhere toward justice precisely because they are disorienting and multidirectional. They are Alice in Wonderland terms. Virtual_God is correct that you can’t prove that trust is or is not present when used without a Counter-Racist definition. You can’t prove what is in your mind or anyone else’s.

Last Proposed Counter-racist definition of TRUST:
The absence of any need for proof that a statement is true or that an action is correct.

Virtual_God has asked how, when, and where “trust”, as defined above, works.

How: By acting without a request for additional proof

When: 1) one has all necessary proof; 2) one mistakenly believes one has all necessary proof ; 3) one is not certain that one has all necessary information but does not request the any additional proof.

Where: Anywhere

It seems as if a 2nd revision to the definition is in order.


TRUST: Anything done without a request for additional proof.

So, Virtual_ God is correct again. Any person interested in truth and correctness will not object to providing additional proof if it is possible to to provide it. That is, “trust” between persons is not necessary if those persons want to produce truth and correctness. That is the result a Counter-Racist definition should produce. So, insistence on the use of the word will run the Racists into a dead end.

Please point out what is incorrect. That’s what refinement of Counter-Racism is. Finally, V_God I use e-mail for all communications to ask all questions. However, sending an e-mail requesting verification of the submission of hard copy documents is not reliable proof because the suspect can just reply by e-mail that they were not received and raise the question as to whether it was really submitted.


Josh, I have indeed explained to my supervisor, why I used the log. That's when she said all that stuff about trust. I believe that I do have the language. Can you please check my post "on Trust" in the "Counter-Racist Strategy forum? Please critique and tell me what's incorrect or incomplete.
_________________
Death of the lower body is certain. Now what?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Counter-Racism Work/Study Project Forum Index -> Counter-Racism Definitionary All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Web CalendarShopping MallDonations